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December 14, 2010

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קידום אתרים

Informative post shared by you here. Many thanks for making a truthful effort to explain this. I feel fairly strong about this and would like to read more.

conner

I've had my Trek 1200 since 1988. It's been a jewel. I don't put a lot of miles on it yearly, about 750. I'm 6'3 220, so I put quite a bit of stress on the frame, and enjoy the American River ride in Sacramento which as seveal pretty good climbs. The frame performs great, is still very stiff, and I don't have any plans for a new one any time soon!

Momo

Hi Hamad, don't feel obliged to search for that info...i was just curious...

I'm not sure I can, but I'll try and attach an image, a photo from the magazine article I mentioned...it's from Le Cycle, issue September 2010...if it doesn't work I'll just do links to the flickr site...imbedding photo didn't work so here are some links to some of the Time photos...I shot these with a little camera and uploaded to flickr...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/morristaub/5401071782/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/morristaub/5400472963/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/morristaub/5401072210/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/morristaub/5400472449/

:hamad

i'm going have to do some digging...

Momo

wait, wait, I've seen machines that weave carbon plus whatever else is used, like vectran, at the Time factory...in a french magazine article...so, hamad, I'm not so sure about your 'look and giant' statement...can you show where you found this info?...

roguemechanic...i have been wondering about the difference between american made Trek oclv frames and the TCT frames made in Taiwan...and this year, all the 5 series frames are tct, no longer oclv, and just as expensive or even more expensive than last years 5 series models which were all oclv frames...

about the cervelo frame with defect or any other brand, wouldn't it be a matter of quality control and how much a brand/company is willing to pay for it?...

personally, i do think many of the carbon frames look very similar in basic exterior form...without decals it would be hard to tell some apart...but there are differences, no?...different types of carbon fiber used, added materials like the vectran in Time frames and forks, how many layers, thickness of chain stays and seat stays, geometry differences...what about the quality of the epoxy used?...

I've been looking at new entry level type carbon fiber frames, whole bikes, long distance comfort bikes like the specialized roubaix, the giant tcr or defy, treks tct offerings, or something like the Look 566...all with 105 components...they're all close in price, equipment...only the giant seems to offer a bit more, ultegra, for nearly the same price...but damn, how does someone like me who isn't in the bike biz tell them apart from a 'quality' point of view?...

I'm down to thinking i'm getting slightly more for my money with the giant and a bike shop i like is selling it, so it has come down to that...even if i like the looks of another bike frame more, it's such small difference that it almost doesn't matter...

i did kinda like the differences years ago with steel when there were subtle but explained differences between say SL tubing and EL OS tubing...then it was down to builder i guess and paint plus geometry, etc...maybe i was kidding myself, but that seemed clearer to me than the difference between a giant carbon frame and a specialized or cervelo carbon frame...

:hamad

the fact is, as far as carbon goes, there are only two manufacturers that weave the carbon for all bikes in the industry. look and giant. then your bike companies have to buy from them.

i agree with Dan O. it's all the same bike, with different stickers. just who has the better price.

Dan O

Great post - in a lot of ways, you're paying for paint and stickers. You'd hope you're paying for a great designs as well, even if manufactured off-shore.

China and Taiwan can produce high quality frames for sure - but they'll never have the "storied history" of other builders - since they're the manufacturing plant that operates in the background. Meanwhile, the bike companies play up their history, racing success, and crank up the marketing machine, while the bikes arrive from Asia.

Does it really matter where the frames are made? No one cries foul 'cause the rest of the bike comes from Japan or Italy - as from Shimano, Campy, etc.

In the end, maybe it doesn't matter, but you still lose something when no actual frames are being produced under the roof of a bicycle company. Even if that something is just a leftover for old time cyclists to fret over. I'd guess a young cyclist buying a Cervelo couldn't care less why the frame came from Taiwan and not Belgium. It's new world order. Interesting stuff anyway.

Cool blog you have here. I did the bike shop mechanic tour of duty in the early '80s.

RogueMechanic

Hello Dugg,
I've seen that before...unfortunately. Hey, I dig your blog/site. Keep it up! Thanks for writing. -John

RogueMechanic

Hello Brent,
That's a whole different can of worms... I would think that it's an issue of marketing, numbers ordered/produced, demand, design constraints, etc... Thanks for your comment! -John

dugg

definitely not quality control. just had a 2011 cervelo frame with housing stop riveted on backwards this week.

Brent

Is the question why two frames made to the same construction standards (but maybe different shapes) in the same Taiwanese factory have such different costs? If so, I've been wondering that myself. Besides the obvious differences, like marketing and maybe geometry issues, there really doesn't seem to be any difference.

RogueMechanic

Hey Rick!
I'm with you in regards to Italian carbon frames...some are pathetic, embarrassing, and needless to say, extremely overpriced. I do question your position on the history... I believe that Trek set the bar with their OCLV and I think that "developed and/or refined in Asia" is more like R&D...and you know what that stands for! Bottom line is that I'd take a US make carbon frame over any carbon frame made in Taiwan or China, but that's just me.
I'm well aware that this isn't as cut and dry as it sounds. There are numerous factors to take into account. When consumers are demanding more for less, that puts you and other brand managers between and rock and a hard place.
I really appreciate you taking the time to contribute. I enjoy hearing what you have to say and I value your opinion. Thanks for writing Rick!

twitter.com/rick_vosper

"Craftsmanship or storied history?" On carbon frames? I submit that craftsmanship of framebuilders in Asia is every bit as good as those anywhere in the world, at least on bikes available in commercial quantities. Compare an Italian-made carbon Colnago (a fine bike by itself) with a Taiwanese one and you'll see exactly what I mean: the Asian version is the superior frame in every respect.

As for history, every one of the cutting-edge techniques used to make state-of-the-art carbon frames was developed and/or refined in Asia. So for my money, it's the Taiwanese and Chinese craftsmen (and women) we should be venerating.

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