Recent Email Regarding Campagnolo Ultra Torque

I received an email from someone last week or so that impressed the heck out of me because of how thorough and logical approach was addressing this issue.  This is too good not to share.  He was experiencing the dreaded non-issue with his Campagnolo Ultra Torque System.  I must say that his theory of the clicking coming from the Hirth joint is interesting and not unrealistic.  This being said, I still think that the majority of the noises (knocking and clicking) is more related to the axial movement.  Usually movement usually and eventually developes into noise.  Nevertheless, below are exerps (i.e. the meat) of the correspondence... I excluded identies to protect the inocent from the rabid Campy loyalists...

Here is an account of my experience with this problem, as related to the person I sold my bike to:

As you might have guessed from our conversation, I try to be thorough when confronting a mechanical problem.  So I can tell you that I did research the web for postings of similar problems and did find a few, including an earlier--and much shorter--report from the "Rogue Mechanic."  Here we are, approximately 2 years later, and the reports seem to be everywhere.  This is what I expected, given the nature of Campy's new design.
I had already tried pretty much everything you will find in the list of "fixes" attempted, including:

1) sending the crank back to Campy for replacement--they said the crank was fine but that they "found sand in the bearings."  This lie confounded me at the time--the crank had been used for perhaps 20 miles only on clean, dry pavement--but now makes sense if they were trying to avoid an avalanche of complaints for which they had no solution.
2) replaced the bearings (with ceramic ones), which--of course--made no difference
3) refaced the bottom bracket, to make sure it was dimensionally accurate, and that the opposing bearing shells were completely parallel
4) replaced the bearing shells themselves---just in case
5) got rid of the stupid wave washer, and shimmed up the non-drive side with shims ordered from McMaster Carr in L.A.  (still have all the shims, if you're interested)
6) Then, as I mentioned, I hooked up the Chassis Ear to try to determine exactly just where within the bottom bracket this click was originating.  I used several microphones, and by switching between them was able to determine that the noise was as loud on the non-drive side as the chain ring side.  By inference, my suspicion is that the joint itself makes this clicking noise.  Now, one wonders, how is this possible?
Well, look at the size of the coupling bolt which secures the two crank halves.  Its diameter is constrained by the inside bore diameter of the bored-out (and consequently weakened) crank.  In addition, this bolt is countersunk to a depth of a couple of centimeters, which results in reduced weight of the crank, but also reduces strength and leaves a shallow coupling for Campy's ill-advised choice of a short coupling bolt with very few threads.  This combination, in my view, most likely allows movement in the Hirth joint itself and the resulting noise.  Using Loctite to secure those threads made no difference.
Now, it occurred to me that one method of confirming this conclusion would be to apply machinist's blue dye to the Hirth joint itself, and then ride the bike, take it apart, examine the dye pattern, etc. This is the method for determining exactness of gear occlusion in critical applications such as automotive differential ring and pinion gears.  Suspecting this would confirm my suspicion (and having the knowledge and experience to do this), I brought home some machinist's dye.  At this point, however, I reflected on how much time I had already spent, and what--if any--benefit would come from further testing.  Campagnolo had not only showed no interest in the problem, it had lied to one of its best and most faithful dealers about it.  There weren't enough failures showing up in the field yet for this relatively new part to cause market flashback.  And I had moved on, as, evidently, had the engineers at Campagnolo.

 My response...

I hope that this message finds you well and thank you very much for sharing your experience and technical expertise.  I really appreciate the process that you went through because it was thorough and logical.  I also understand your frustration, not only with the design but also with the company completely turning it's back on an obvious design flaw/issue.  I'm sure that you saw all of the flack that I caught bringing this to light...that was and still is interesting.  Recently I was told by Tom K., the national sales manager, that they designed the axial movement into the system.  I politely threw up the BS flag...
Anyway, I find your theory of the Hirth joint to be very interesting as the Ducati gear example.  I agree that it's not the best choice for this application and can certainly lead to creating a noise.  As you are probably well aware, movement will eventually manifest into a noise.  It would have been interesting to see the results of you using the machinist's dye... In fact, if I get a chance and have the time, I just might do it... I'll let you know.
For what it's worth, the complaints that I have heard regarding the noise fall in the knock and click range.  From what I can tell, the knock seems to be from the loading and unloading of the wave washer.  I find that this is more prevalent on bikes with BB shell widths on the low end of the tolerance spec.  It seems to me that the clicks happen when the bearing and/or  cups are worn and or dry (very little grease).  I actually have examples of cups with the finish rubbed off from the axial bearing movement.  All of this being said, after reading your theory, it certainly very reasonable that the clicking can also be coming from the Hirth joint.  I certainly wouldn't rule it out.  This in fact is going to bug the crap out of me until I try the machinist's dye... stay tuned.
In closing, thanks again for sharing this with me.  I always like getting different prospectives from those who have hands on experience and not form those who for one reason or another cannot remove themselves from the theoretical world.

Best regards,

John

...and his reply:

Thanks for the comments, which I'm also passing along to the owner of the bike with which I had this UltraTorque problem.
I also can see why the wave-washer approach might cause a knocking sound, but the "click" that I had was really elusive.  It only happened when standing off the saddle and climbing grades above 12% or so, but was unnerving on those occasions.  A Shimano crank with square-profile axle (like the previous Centaur crank) solved the problem.
Keep up the good work.

 

Comments

[Sean Hogan]

Hi John
Thanks for your reply,my mechanic changed the standard Campag UT crankset with a Compact FSA from my previous nike that was running fine.I then went for a 25km spin that had hills flats and descents,after 9km perfect,on rounding the corner to start a climb I heard the usual crack/click noise, went up hills out of saddle no noise,back on the straight after the hills one more noise and on the flat home one more noise as before.However the Campag I had double the amunt of crack/click noises.The compact FSA seems to have imperoved the performance but its still there,I am going to ask my mechanic to change the wheels front and back.Pedals/cleats/shoes have been eliminated.There are no visual cracks on the frame.Could an internal frame crack cause this kind of noise? Thanks a mil for your help, I will keep you posted.
sean

[RogueMechanic]

Hello Sean, I hope that this message finds you well and I am sorry that you are having this issue with your UT. One way to narrow it down to the crankset/bottom bracket is to have your mechanic install a FSA crankset (only if you do not have to buy it...) and you ride it and see if the usual noise is still there. If it is, then it's probably safe to say that it's something other than the UT. If the noise is gone, then the opposite is probably true... If your mechanic is still hesitant to remove the wave washer and install the shims, well then maybe you need to find another mechanic that is more open minded to finding a solution to your problem. I hope that this info helps. Please let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks for writing! -John

[Sean Hogan]

Hi

I am reading these posts as I have a noise problem thats coming from the BB area in my Colnago CLX2 bought in jan this year.It is fitted with a Campag UT crankset.
My problem started from day, the click/crack noise that I hear happens almost ever 5km and after a 20km spin it happens around every 10k.
It happens more uphill and only once when out of saddle.
Yesterday I was on a spint with 8 climbs ie out of saddle and it happened only once.

My LBS has removed the crankset and sees nothing wrong.He is reluctant to introduce the shims.He is going to replace the crankset with a FSA to see if this sovles the issue.
So now you have one more with a noisy Campy UT system, would you have any other suggestions.

sean

[RogueMechanic]

Steven, thank you for writing and thank you for your kind words. I actually used your comment in my latest post. Sorry that you have to deal with this issue. Let me know if there is anything that I can do to help. -John

[Steven Davison]

Greeting from a not-so-sunny UK.

I tell you what, John - some people out there must run some seriously poorly maintained bikes (I know for sure they do!). Those who claim that there is not a problem with UT BB's are either very lucky or ignorant.

I run two Ridleys (both 68mm shells) and have no end of problems with clunking. It's not just me - it's everyone else I know that has these problems with UT and not just on Ridleys - I'm talking Scott, Fondriest, Lightspeed, Pinarello, Colnago.
I speak from experience here as I ride and race upwards of 15000 miles per annum in all weathers.

I've tried the two wavy washer approach and that has helped although there is still movement enough in there to score the surfaces of both washers after 500 miles or so of use. It's a seriously flawed design, no matter what the response to the contrary. If you hadn't carried out the research you have then we'd all be the worse for it. That's a fact. 100%.

I'll be ordering a couple of shim kits and experimenting. I'm fed up with the constant stripping, regreasing, rebuilding, etc. I even switched to Ceramic Speed bearings and cups to see if that would help but to no avail. Shims are absolutely what is needed. Even if you decide to retain the (compressed to 0.7 or 0.8mm) wavy washer element you would still need to ensure that it had no more than 1mm of space to occupy otherwise your assembly will be slopping all over the place.

In either case, whether you keep the washer or ditch it, you need to shim out that 'difference'.

Keep up the good work, mate.

Cheers

Steven

[RogueMechanic]

Hello Peter, Thank you for your comment. I'm sure that you have more experience than I do with this. What flavor is that kool-aid?

[Peter Jeffries]

"There weren't enough failures showing up in the field yet for this relatively new part to cause market flashback".

It appears from the email that the author experienced this alleged issue in 2010. Ultra Torque was released in 2006. Its now 2012. How many ultra torque cranksets do you think have been sold in this time? A google search still shows just you and your pathetic little campaign. No "market flashback" yet.

Meanwhile... in the real world:

http://forums.cervelo.com/forums/p/2519/15292.aspx

Read it and weep. You're fooling nobody. Idiot.