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Quick response to Lennard Zinn regarding Campagnolo Ultra Torque

Dear Lennard,

I appreciate you mentioning my approach to the Campagnolo Ultra Torque issue in your most recent column in Velonews, even though you don't think that it's a good option for Franck.  I agree that the external shim kits that he mentioned is not a good option, specifically because it will not work with his press fit bottom bracket.  In light of this fact, there is no way for Franck to damage his nice ceramic bearings performing the "Rogue Mechanic" tip using one of my shim kits designed for threaded bottom brackets.  Additionally, since Campagnolo uses angular contact bearings in their Ultra Torque system, a small amount of side load will not hurt the bearings.  I will agree with you that the noise is probably not coming from the Hirth joint, especially if the connecting bolt was tightened to the recommended torque recommended by Campagnolo.

Your point about pushing laterally from the non-drive side of the crankset does not reflect the same type of side load when pedaling is off-base.  I would argue that the combination of rider weight and leg strength is more than enough to compress the wave washer.  I would also argue that rarely does a rider apply force to the pedals in a singluar plane (perpendicular to the axle).  Regarding your statement about chainring movement, if the amount of lateral chainring movement that is present in some Ultra Torque systems was the norm, it would be a non-issue.

I too was surprised that the Praxis bottom bracket didn't improve the situation.  It makes me wonder if it was installed properly.   I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the bottom bracket shell is out of spec...I've see that situation more than I can remember!  You mentioned to Franck that "facing" the bottom bracket shell might improve things... If you are aware of an accurate way to face a press-fit bottom bracket shell (that can be done in a shop), please let me know.

You mentioned In your closing paragraph that regular bearing service helps as well as packing the cups with grease (this will quiet things down for a while).  I agree that this should/can be done, but it doesn't address the cause of the problem/noise which is movement (when the wave washer is compressed and then springs back).  Beyond that, I would hesitate using epoxy to hold the cups in place until I have exhausted all other options for fear of damaging the bottom bracket shell if the cups would need to be removed sometime in the future. 

In closing, I like Campy as much as the next guy, but I guess that I haven't developed a taste for the blue Kool-Aid.  Years ago when one of my clients was experiencing a knocking noise that appeared to be coming from his recently installed Campagnolo Record Ultra Torque bottom bracket, analyzing the situation and coming up with a practical solution is what I am paid to do.  In the years since, the problem hasn't been addressed by anyone from Vicenza other than "that they designed the axial movement into the system."  I guess that I will continue to produce the shim kits for both threaded and press-fit bottom brackets until folks no longer have issues. 

All the best,

RM

New RogueMechanic Shim Kit for Pressfit Ultra-Torque Cups.

I'll cut right to the chase.  After countless requests for shim kit that works with the press fit variants of Ultra-Torque systems, I finally came up with a solution that I am happy with.  This approach is different than the approach that I took with the shim kits for threaded bottom brackets because these shims are installed inside the NDS bottom bracket cup and are designed to work in conjunction with the wave washer to increase the preload on the bearing to ultimately reduce axial movement and thus noise. 

These shims are PTFE and are made in the USA.  Each shim kit contains: (2) .75mm (0.03"), (2) .50mm (0.02"), (2) .25mm (0.01"), and (2) .13mm (0.005") shims.   With the four different thicknesses, you should be able to dial in the exact stack height combination for optimal bearing preload that should eliminate any noise that is the result of excessive axial play.

Detailed installation instructions will be posted soon.  As always, feel free to contact me with any questions.

Go here to purchase.

 

New RogueMechanic Online Storefront

Hey All,

It's been quite some time since my last post.  As you can imagine, I've been crazy-busy.  For that, I am grateful.  Among other things, I just wanted to give you a heads-up regarding the roll out of my new online storefront.  The time has come to make a change.  I should have everything moved over and updated within a week or so.  Here's the link: RogueMechanic Store.  This is were you can order RogueMechanic Shim Kits for Campagnolo Ultra Torque as well as Mavic spokes and other parts.  Thanks for checking it out!

Mavic Parts Inventory Matrix

Here's a link to a spreadsheet of a partial Mavic parts list that I normally stock.  The green cells are items that I usually have available.  Currently, this parts matrix only goes back to 2006, but I plan on adding to it as soon as I have the time.  Keep in mind that I have a lot of pre-2006 parts still available that even Mavic no longer stocks.  Just click on the yellow RogueMechanic Store link located to the upper right side of this page or click on the Store menu tab above.  If you need an item that I do not normally stock, just let me know and I will see if I can get it for you. 

Download Mavic Parts Matrix(Ver7292014)

Get Your Mavic Info Right Here!

I recently added another tab on the navigation bar above named "Mavic Info".  There you will find Mavic tech manuals, photos to help ID what model and/or year your wheels are, FAQ's, and more.  There isn't a day that goes by that I get several emails regarding Mavic parts availability, wheel ID, and the like.  Hopefully, this page will help.  The current offerings include but are not limited to spokes, parts, rims, and tools for Ksyrium, Crossmax, R-SYS, etc.  I also do special orders if you need something that I do not have listed.  Hit me up if you need anything.  Thanks!

Recent Email regarding Campagnolo Ultra-Torque

I received this email last week and I felt compelled to share most of it...

Dear Rogue Mechanic,

 

...My intent was to build the Colnago CX-1 myself with Campy Super Record components as I couldn’t allow having Japanese parts installed into the Italian frame. I’ve been a cyclist for over 40 years and 30 of them were with Campy components, and the last 10 with the Dura Ace.

 

As I started shopping around on the internet for comments / reviews and prices for the 2014 Super Record group, I stumbled upon the issue of the knocking noises for the Ultra Torque Bottom Bracket. I was surprised that Campy, after their long history of really making well made road bike parts, has issues.

 

I'm a mechanical engineer with 40 years experience as a machine designer of heavy newspaper printing press equipment. When I looked at and studied the assembly of the bottom bracket, crank and that wavy washer, I saw right away what was wrong and why the knocking noises exist. The culprit is the wavy washer. It’s a cheap way for Campy to allow that assembly to “work properly”because of the dimensional variations of different bottom bracket widths and the crank parts supplied by Campy. Working properly during assembly does not mean it’s working right for the forces created of turning the crank while cycling. The turning forces or torque applied to the crank is not uniform all the way around as all cyclists know and as we all try to achieve uniformity there. These non uniform torques will develop axial forces that squeeze of the wavy washer in and out. Axial movement of the crank will now exist and cause wear and then finally noises will happen. This axial movement of the crank must be constrained rigidly so as to not allow this wear. As an analogy, in printing presses, any axial movement of more than  0.003" at the printing cylinders will cause the print to be blurry.

 

Because the crank is held and located by the bearings, they need to be constrained rigidly.

 

So, ROGUE MECHANIC, your idea of the shims to account for dimensional variations and creating axial rigidity is the correct and perfect solution to remove any axial displacement.

 

It is how it’s done for preloading the Timken bearings in heavy printing presses running at paper speeds at 3000 feet per minute.    ... using shims to preload and constrain the bearings.

 

I’m happy that I ran across your website and applaud you for your insight and your expertise in machining those shims. I bought two sets as I'm going to build another bike.

I did not and will not install the wavy washer.

 

The Colnago is built now and after 500 miles the crank turns as smooth as silk with no axial play and no knocking noises.

 

Great Job, 

ES

Visit with Campagnolo at 2014 NAHBS

Last month I was fortunate enough to attend the 2014 NAHBS show in Charlotte North Carolina and I was glad that I did.  Near the top of my list of "to do"  list was visiting the Campagnolo booth.  It was actually one of the first that I visited that Friday morning.  I ended up stopping by to chat with the good folks there several more times that weekend.  I asked them to convince me why the axial movement is acceptable and to give me a reason to stop producing the shim kits.  All of the discussions that we had were worthwhile for me and at times both enlightening and confusing.  Here are some of my take-aways from the conversations...

• The design of the Ultra-Torque System is not going away for the foreseeable furture.
• From the corporate level down, they are sticking to their guns that the axial movement that occurs with some Ultra-Torque systems is prefectly acceptable.
• We share a disdain for all of the press-fit bottom bracket "standards".
• The tech folks and Campagnolo NA are tired of fielding calls from folks inquiring about the RogueMechanic Ultra-Torque Shim Kits...
• Some time has been spent on this website by the Campagnolo NA folks and folks at Campagnolo in Italy looking over my posts regarding Ultra-Torque.
• Campagnolo uses angular contact bearings in their Ultra-Torque system which can tolerate some preload...that's one of the benefits of angular contact bearings.  Both too much preload and the lack of any preload is not good.
• When I asked one of the techs there what he would do if he had a bike with a BB shell on the lower end of the shell width tollerance allowance, he said that he would coat the internal surfaces of the cups with anti-seize.
• We agreed that if frame manufactures made their English shells balls-on 68mm and the Italian shells balls-on 70mm wide, this would be a nonissue.

After digesting all of the information while at the same time trying my best to keep an open mind, I concluded that they have choosen not to address the issue of eliminating the axial movement.  This being said, I have come up with an "alternative" method for reducing the axial movement and thus hopefully eliminating any noise that is the result of the axial movement.  This is a "half-step" compaired to the complete removal of the wave/spring washer and might be easier to swallow for the die-hard loyalists and can't accept the complete removal of the wave washer because it hasn't gotten the approval from Vicenza.  Here's "Plan B":

For bikes on the lower end of the allowable shell width variance and/or bikes that have noticable axial movement, you can add the shims externally (like the original process) while still using the wavy washer the way it was designed to be used.  This method effectively adds preload to the bearings via the wave washer by increasing the shell width by way of the external shims.  This process might take longer because you would probably have to test ride the bike in order to find out if you added enough shims to increase the preload to decrease the axial movement.  Keep in mind that since wave washers will lose their "set" over time, you might have to add a shim (or combination of shims) sometime down the road.

To wrap this post up, I still believe that the original process of removing the wave washer and adding external shims is the better way to address this issue.  I was grateful that the guys at the Campagnolo booth took the time to talk "shop" with me.  The love for Campagnolo at NAHBS was almost palpable throughout the hall...and it's obvious why!

30 August 2013 SITREP

•  I've been crazy-busy this season.  Substancial growth in the number of new clients each usually having multiple bikes paired with my existing clients equals a huge increase in my workload.  I am greatful for each and every job that I get. 

• If you need Mavic spokes (including Tracomp), freehub bodies, or other small parts, it's more than likely that I have them.  I'm shipping multiple orders daily....to just about everywhere.  Go here if you need some.

• I'm still making and selling the RogueMechanic Shim Kits for the Campagnolo Ultra-Torque issue that Campy continues to ignore.  If you need one go here... If you are wondering what the heck I'm talking about, go here.

• Atlanta.  Earlier this year I did recon down in ATL.  Because of the amount of work that I had during the months since being there, I haven't had a chance to focus the time and energy to get RogueMechanic ATL up and running.  I have had to go back to the drawing board with a few of my ideas, but I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not abandoning ATL.  Additionally, I also want to kill the rummors/fears that I am leaving CLE and moving RogueMechanic down to ATL...that's not going to happen, at least for the foreseeable future.  So y'all can stop your worrying!

• Do you want more timely updates about what's going on (Since I have already proven that I suck at keeping this site updated...), your best bet is to follow me on Twitter...@RogueMechanic.

• That's it for now.  Back to the bikes.

RogueMechanic  Out.

More Atlanta Information

As I mentioned in a prior post, my first scheduled time in Atlanta is just about two weeks away.  Since this is just around the corner, I wanted to take some time to better explain what RogueMechanic is all about.

I do bike repairs, maintenance, and custom builds.  The majority of my jobs involve road and multi-sport but I also work on a lot of CX and mountain bikes.  Here in CLE, I seem to have cornered the “problem solver” market.  By this I mean that I get the bikes that have an issue that the local bike shops can’t solve.

I’m an alternative to taking your bike to a bike shop.  I am by all means not anti LBS.  Some of them are my best customers.  The fact of the matter is that most local bike shops focus more on sales and recreational bikes and just do not have the time and the resources to maintain and/or troubleshoot high end bikes.  That’s where I come in.

I am a BBI Certified Mechanic with over 26 years experience.  I've been told that I take what I do too seriously... guilty as charged.  I believe that without trust you have nothing.  Trust is earned, not assumed.  What I do is built upon trust and integrity.  You can be the best mechanic in the world, but if you can’t be trusted, you’re worthless. 

In order to get the ball rolling in ATL, I’m offering a special price for my Complete Tune.  If you book a Complete Tune for January 18-19^th, you will get $50 off.  This is a huge deal.  Additionally, I am working on a referral reward program.  I’ll get those details out as soon as possible.  In the mean time, hit me up with any questions. 

RogueMechanic Complete Tune

The Complete Tune is by far the most popular maintenance package that I am asked to do at least annually on my clients bikes.  Since it seems like everyone does different things when it comes to tune-ups or overhauls, I figured that it would be a good thing to list exactly what I do.  By doing this, you know exactly what you are getting.

1. Inspection of the frame and fork for any damage.

2. Inspection of the chain, cassette, and chainrings for wear and/or damage.

3.  Inspection of remaining components including headset, bottom bracket, pedals, cables and housing sections for wear and/or damage.

4.  Inspection of wheels and tires for wear and/or damage.

5.  Inspection of bars, stem, seatpost, and all related fasteners for any damage.

6.  Contact owner with estimate if anything needs to be replaced or with any other concerns that would add to the initial quoted estimate.

7.  Remove chain, cassette, crankset, rear derailleur, and front derailleur and place in Crest Ultrasonic cleaner*.

8.  Clean frame, fork, and brake calipers.

9. Apply initial coat of spray wax onto frame and fork.

10. Clean both front and rear wheels as best as possible.

11.  Adjust hubs and true wheels.

12.  Remove chain, cassette, crankset, derailleurs from ultrasonic cleaner.

13.  Dry drivetrain components and apply lubricant to all pivot points.

14.  Install cassette back onto rear wheel.

15. Apply high quality grease onto spindle and install crankset.

16.  Check rear derailleur hanger alignment and correct if necessary.

17.  Install both front and rear derailleurs back onto frame.

18.  Install wheels.

19.  Install chain and apply chain lubricant.

20.  Reattach cables to both front and rear derailleurs and make adjustments to limit screws, cable tension, and alignment.

21.  Adjust both the cable tension, caliper and pad alignment of front and rear brakes.

22.  Adjust headset.

23.  Inspect and torque all stem bolts to manufacturers specification.

24.  Apply final coat of wax onto frame and fork.

25.  Inflate tires to manufacturers recommend pressure.

26.  Test ride bike.

* Very few shops have an ultrasonic cleaner.  The Crest Ultrasonics model that I use is heated, which makes for more effective cleaning.  Additionally, I use a biodegradable detergent.

For a list of my other labor rates, here's a link to my service menu.